Women on Shakespeare: Janni Goslinga on Margaret

Since most Shakespearean casts are male-heavy and even male-only, coverage tends to focus on men who create the work. Let's balance that out! This is the second season of my interview series, Women on Shakespeare. I'm talking with the women who produce and perform Shakespeare and related work in New York City.

I'm thrilled to email with Janni Goslinga, the leading lady in Ivo van Hove's production of Kings of War. The six-hour epic, playing at BAM this weekend, adapts Henry V, Henry VI 1-3, and Richard III into a single drama. Van Hove’s direction of classics, especially his recent Broadway mountings of Arthur Miller, has struck some as iconoclastic (as if that's a flaw). Goslinga has worked with van Hove many times, and now plays his Margaret, the original template for Shakespeare's 'powerful queen' roles.

Thanks for talking with me, Janni. What have you discovered about Margaret that you find fascinating?

Margaret is a survivor. She is ruthless to others and herself. She sees what is necessary and what must be done to rise to power and stay in power. Which is exactly what she wants. She is married off to the King of England as part of a deal negotiated between France and England, and leaves her whole world behind to become Queen. When she discovers that Henry is weak and unfit to be a king, she decides to assume control. Margaret is too strong-willed, has too much ambition and too much talent to play the dutiful little wife: ‘…is it okay for Henry to act like nothing more than a school boy? Am I a queen in nothing but title and really secondary to a Duke?’

Which scenes are the most challenging?

The scene in which she loses control, when Henry gets a nervous breakdown, is definitely the most challenging to play. Henry hears of the death of his good friend Gloucester, begins to suspect Margaret’s lover Suffolk and starts praying obsessively. Margaret tries desperately to stay in control, but plotting to murder Gloucester has sent adrenaline rushing through her system. She struggles to suppress feelings of deep resentment and anger towards her weak husband. Finally she explodes: ‘I have done everything for you! Look at me! Do something!’ Margaret’s survival instinct tells her to fight, but Henry’s response in the face of danger is flight. This scene has to be rough, frantic, irrational. We act it out differently every night.

What knots did the playwright leave for you to untangle?

In the following scene for instance, […] when Suffolk is unmasked and banished for his crime, the lovers say a passionate farewell. We rehearsed that scene several times and tried to inject strong sexual tension into it. At a certain point Ivo [van Hove] proposed to cut out all the romantic ‘…I’m lost without you…’ phrases from Margaret. Suffolk gets an emotional outburst. Margaret only replies: ‘The King is coming. Go. Take my heart with you.’

Goslinga (l) with Eelco Smits as Henry VI

When that mind switch became clear to me, I knew how to play this role. This is a woman who is able to see the future — and put her son’s interests first. What is left to save? She kicks her lover to the curb and refuses to feel the pain this causes her. She won’t allow it. All she gives herself is that one little sentence that she barks at him on his way out: ‘and take my heart with you.’

She is a survivor.

Margaret was the first of Shakespeare’s powerful queen roles, and, across three plays, it’s the largest part in his complete works. How does Kings of War present her, as compared with the strong men and weak kings?

Richard III is the only play regularly performed in the Netherlands. Dutch audiences generally view Margaret as ‘that crazy woman who swears like a sailor’. They are never quite sure what her reasons for swearing are and who she is really cursing. Performing Henry VI and Richard III allows us to show her forcefulness. When she is crowned Queen of England, she has high expectations. She is bitterly disappointed when it becomes clear that her husband has no actual power and that the court nobility is really in charge. Margaret becomes a true Iron Lady: ‘Lords, hard politics freeze up my Henry.’

Margaret is dominant, unwilling to compromise in negotiations and will stop at nothing to achieve her goals. She is hard on herself and has great contempt for men who show weakness. Attack is her best line of defense. She calls Henry ‘a walking disaster’ and tells Suffolk he’s a ‘sorry excuse for a man, a spineless crybaby.’ The only person she has a soft spot for is her son. When Henry offers York the rights to the throne and betrays their son, she leaves him, raises an army with her son and goes to battle. When, much later, she returns to curse Richard III — the man responsible for killing her husband and son — she is totally fearless. She is like a terrorist with nothing left to lose. She has returned for one reason only: to wreak havoc and bring about destruction. Destruction through precision bombing in words. Ivo rightly calls her ‘a ticking time bomb’ in this scene.

How does van Hove's creative aesthetic fit with the Shakespeare you’ve done together?

Goslinga (l.) in Roman Tragedies

With Roman Tragedies the concept was a big political conference, one that we were all part of, both the audience and the actors. The news ticker and the television screens all flashed the same announcement: in ten minutes you will witness the murder of Julius Caesar. We moved through the audience. This gave the whole performance an intensity and a level of tension I had never seen before. The audience literally sits next to us as we fight, make love, invent conspiracies and die.

In Kings of War, with its War Rooms and secret passages, we also play to the camera and the audience at the same time. It’s an acting style that we have developed together and I personally love it.

In Othello, created by Jan [Versweyveld, set & light designer] over a decade ago, a glass house that served as a warship and a bedroom at the same time moved slowly towards the front of the stage. The play started out as theater and ended in a close-up like in a Hitchcock movie, next to Othello and Desdemona’s bed. Audience members later told us that they wanted to run up on stage and stop Othello when he gets ready to kill her.

I have also starred in a Romeo and Juliet production in which Julia’s whole family was made up of tango dancers. This resulted in a few very unique scenes, but I did not feel that the concept was able to carry the whole play.

Can you tell me more about van Hove's and Jan Versweyveld's aesthetic vision, and how it shapes your performance?

Ivo and Jan always have a fresh and compelling view of the pieces they want to do. Their approach is indeed ‘un-holy’, or maybe I should say nothing is holy in the process of rehearsals, as long as it is in line with the concept. The concept is always very well thought-out. The space that Jan has developed and the situations Ivo describes to us actors, always offer a lot of inspiration that we can use in our portrayal of the scenes. Most of the time, things fall into place naturally from that concept and the choices Ivo makes are a natural, organic result.

Ivo and Jan’s immeasurable talents lie in the creation of concepts that really capture the essence of a piece and they’re never dogmatic. It’s fun for them to watch what happens with their ideas on stage.

In your career you’ve worked on several of Shakespeare's plays. What’s your perspective on his roles for women?

Goslinga (l.) as Emilia in Othello (2012)

For me, it’s mostly a shame that they usually don’t have as many lines as the male characters do. Or the fact that they are given fewer opportunities to be philosophical, contemplate matters, express doubts or offer arguments. Because, really, I think it’s exquisite when they do. I had the honor of playing Emilia in Othello and her monologue is second to none, not even Shylock’s: ‘Let men know that women have senses too: we can see and smell and we have a palate that knows sweet and sour just like a man’s does…’ Her development in this play is amazing; from an insecure woman trapped in an abusive marriage with husband Iago who despises her and constantly spews racist and sexist remarks (even Donald Trump pales in comparison), to a confident human being who, as the stars align against her, finally sees clearly for the first time when it’s too late and raises her voice to the heavens in agony.

How does his perspective on a woman’s age affect his portrait of her?

How he does that is his gift, I suppose. I played Julia back when I was a theater student in college and now I’m playing Margaret — who’s absolutely ancient by the time she returns in Richard III. The rhythm of a character’s language, the way their minds work, their choice of words, but also the way they view the world — you get to use all of this to show a character’s age. It gives you the hormones and crazy, overwhelming infatuation of teenager Julia, and the centuries of wrath and war and the hate-filled nature of Margaret. A dinosaur who survives everything.

What about your dual roles in Roman Tragedies, with its take on modern politics?

In Roman Tragedies I play ‘the wife’ — the woman behind the successful man. I play both Coriolanus’s silent lady and Julius Caesar’s better half Calpurnia, who foresees his fate but is powerless to stop it from coming to pass as he refuses to listen to her and leaves for the Senate anyway.

I recently read somewhere that, in a lot of descriptions of Hillary Clinton, she is first referred to as Bill Clinton’s wife. Clearly ‘wife of’ is still a position that people would like to see women in today. The fact that these characters play subordinate roles does not mean that you have to portray them as submissive types. In our show, by putting me on stage repeatedly, Ivo shows how the silent woman cries angry tears on the couch at home when she sees Coriolanus getting himself banished by being stubborn. When she later goes to beg him to do something, she shows a stubbornness equal to that of her husband.

Goslinga (l.) as Virgilia
in Roman Tragedies (2012)

These are important choices to make, to allow these characters their fair share of stage time. To take every character seriously, always, without any moral judgment.

Is there anything in Shakespeare's plays that’s beyond salvaging?

I wouldn’t say there’s anything beyond salvaging. But in order to successfully portray the change in Lady Anne’s character in Richard III, or to deliver a strong closing monologue as Katherine in the Taming of the Shrew, you need an exciting and fitting angle. Exciting for both men and women of the 21st century.

Do you have any other Shakespearean roles you’d love to play, or to go back to? Not just the women either—any dream-roles traditionally played by men?

I would love to play Lady Macbeth. Recently at Toneelgroep Amsterdam, male dream-roles also have been played by women by the way: Octavius Caesar is played by a woman in our Roman Tragedies. And we have performed Queen Lear and Hamlet vs Hamlet, both with a female title role.

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Toneelgroup Amsterdam and BAM's Kings of War runs from November 3 to 6 at BAM Howard Gilman Opera House. Tickets start at $30.

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photos  Jan Versweyveld

Women on Shakespeare: Mairin Lee on She Stoops to Conquer

Since most Shakespearean casts are male-heavy and even male-only, coverage tends to focus on men who create the work. Let's balance that out! This is the second season of my interview series, Women on Shakespeare. I'm talking with the women who produce and perform Shakespeare and related work in New York City.

This autumn, the Actor's Company Theatre (TACT) revives She Stoops to Conquer. Written in 1771, Oliver Goldsmith's comedy has Kate Hardcastle impersonate a servant to learn the true personality of her beloved. Mairin Lee, an actor whose classical resume includes ACT and the McCarter, takes the title role in TACT's staging. I emailed with Ms. Lee about Kate, the play, and its relationship to Shakespeare.

Let’s start with Goldsmith and She Stoops to Conquer. What do you love in this play?

I love this play because it’s tremendously fun. The characters do outrageous things to get what they want, but their deepest hopes are real and recognizable. Kate dreams of true love. She commits whole-heartedly to that journey and takes incredible risks along the way. Each character has funny whims and eccentricities, and they’re all genuinely fighting for something.

Why it’s worth reviving in 2016?

Aside from the fact that it’s super funny, it’s stayed relevant. Goldsmith wrote it hundreds of years ago, but it feels very modern. There’s something recognizable in the familial dynamics of the Hardcastles; the troubles of wooing a mate; dissembling to further your cause. These are eternal questions: how do I find love? how do I balance loyalty to my family but also exercise my own freedom? how do I overcome obstacles?

What have you discovered about Kate Hardcastle?

Kate is wonderfully plucky, brave, funny, and sweet. She’s intuitive and smart and she cares deeply for her family. Even when she expresses uncertainty, Scott has encouraged me to find a positive spin. I love that approach because it shows how game she is; how much delight she finds in challenges. I think Kate’s an avid reader; she absolutely devours romance novels. And she is the heroine in her own story. Every obstacle is an opportunity for something extraordinary to happen.

What are the challenges in bringing her to life?

The biggest challenge has been finding Kate in our particular style. There are many ways this play can be presented. It could support very broad comedy, but we wanted to keep the characters as real as possible. And yet Kate makes some wild decisions. So I’ve been discovering how to balance that; how to stay grounded and real while also committing to the play’s crazy twists and turns.

What does her choice of disguises say about her and her assumptions about servants?

We have to remember that it’s not exactly her idea. Mr. Marlow gets so nervous around upper-class women that he can barely speak. He's more forward with women of a lower class. The first time they meet, he can't even look her in the face! Then, when she changes from her finery into a plainer dress, he doesn't recognize her and asks if she's a barmaid. She takes the idea and runs with it, because it’s the only way she’s going to get to know him better.

So it’s more about Marlow’s assumptions of lower class women. Kate is essentially herself, just in a different dress and using a different dialect. This perhaps gives her permission to flirt with him a little more than she normally would, but she doesn’t act wholly out of character. I actually think she’s quite egalitarian and feminist.

What links have you found between Kate Hardcastle and Shakespeare’s romantic heroines?

There are lots of parallels to be drawn here! Kate has some power at the top of the play — her father says, “I will never control your choice” — but she creates even more agency for herself. Her father facilitates the introduction with Marlow, but she takes the courtship into her own hands. Many of Shakespeare’s heroines have — or devise — agency in their lives and romantic endeavors. We see characters like Juliet and Desdemona explicitly go against their fathers' wishes. In the tragedies, of course, that doesn’t always work out well. But we do get happy endings for others, like Rosalind and Viola.

Lee (r) with John Rothman

As a woman in 1773, what could Kate do or say that they couldn’t?

1773 was during the birth of the modern marriage. Love was becoming a deciding factor. If Kate didn’t like Marlow, it would have been within her power to turn him down. This reflects a greater cultural shift in the idea of marriage, and is different from some of the ultimatums laid down in Shakespeare’s plays.

Looking more broadly the play, how does Goldsmith portray women in She Stoops, especially with regard to class?

This is interesting, because our production has cut the female servants. We’re doing the play with eight actors, and Scott figured out how to retain the plot without most of the smaller roles. So we only have Kate, Constance, and Mrs. Hardcastle, who are upper class, and Kate’s barmaid character, who is lower class. As I mentioned, Kate becomes the barmaid so that Marlow can act more freely. As the barmaid, she’s not as proper as she usually is, but she doesn’t do anything completely out of character. The differences are that she uses another dialect (“the true bar cant”) and, in our production, a more free physicality.

I think the question we’re getting at here is — why does Marlow act one way around upper-class women and another around lower-class women? What is Goldsmith saying about the fact that Marlow treats Kate differently depending on what she’s wearing and how she’s speaking? I have a sense that he's poking fun at Marlow, and perhaps using him to draw attention to the folly of the class system itself.

The answer will also differ depending on how Marlow’s played. Jeremy Beck is not only one of funniest actors I’ve worked with, but he also gives Marlow moments of such vulnerability and tenderness. I think the audience can really see why Kate falls in love with him.

Looking at your website, you’ve got plenty of experience in classical drama. How do you grapple with the ingrained sexism of those pre-modern plays?

Aha. While it’s no doubt important to look at the greater themes of these plays, my way in is always through the character. My first obligation is to her and to see the world through her eyes. I have some friends who ask, "Why do you want to do Shakespeare? Your characters usually end up in a puddle of tears! The world is so stacked against them!" And to that I say, YES. Look at all the obstacles in her path. Now: how does she handle them? What can we learn from her? How does Ophelia feel about being told what to do by her brother, her father, her king, and her boyfriend? How does each scene push Lady Macbeth closer and closer to madness?

Lee as Ophelia
in PA Shakespeare Company's Hamlet

That’s what’s fun for an actor. To figure out how a particular character overcomes — or doesn’t — what’s laid before her. So in the moment, the question doesn’t feel like how do I, Mairin, deal with the ingrained sexism of a play written three hundred years ago. Playwrights weren’t necessarily imagining a world where everything was fair and equal. They were showing it as it was, and it was often cruel and messy and unfair. There is sexism in the world of these plays because it was a more sexist world back then. That doesn't justify it or make it okay. I believe the best playwrights were able to subvert some of that sexism by endowing their women with enough creativity or bravery to battle it. First and foremost, they see their characters as human. And that's how I want to see them too.

Do you have any particular Shakespearean roles you’d love to perform?

Juliet has always been at the top of the list. R&J was the first the first play I ever saw, and it blew my world open. Her language is just heavenly. I think she’s one of Shakespeare’s smartest characters. Her heart is so big, and her imagination is astonishing.

I’d love to do Rosaline in Love’s Labour’s Lost and Olivia in Twelfth Night. Or any of the women in Antony and Cleopatra — I played Iras and Octavia in a production at the McCarter a few years ago, and I fell in love with it. Just thinking about all these plays makes me happy and excited!

Any dream-roles traditionally played by men?

I got to play Mercutio this summer in an Off-Broadway production with the Wheelhouse Theatre, and I loved it. I’d play him again in a heartbeat. He’s amazing. There’s a thousand different ways to go. He’s so many things in one — a braggart, a fighter, a clown, a poet. He could be super-masculine or totally androgynous. At times there’s something almost otherworldly about him. I was heartbroken when we closed; I wanted to keep exploring and playing and finding new things. I’ve thought at various times about other male characters — maybe Hal, maybe Orsino, maybe Horatio — but Mercutio really stole my heart.

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TACT's She Stoops to Conquer runs from October 4 to November 5 at Theatre Row. Tickets are $65.

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headshot
photo #2  Marielle Solan
photo #3  Lee A. Butz

Women on Shakespeare: Patricia McGregor on directing Hamlet

Since most Shakespearean casts are male-heavy and even male-only, coverage tends to focus on men who create the work. Let's balance that out! This is the second season of my interview series, Women on Shakespeare. I'm talking with the women who produce and perform Shakespeare and related work in New York City.

Twice every season, the Public Theater's Mobile Unit tours NYC neighborhoods with stagings of classic plays. The company is about to conclude its all-boro tour of Hamlet with a brief run at its home on Lafayette Street. Half of the sixteen artists credited are women, including three actors, the fight choreographer, and the director, Patricia McGregor. Earlier this week, I emailed with the show's Ophelia, and now I'm thrilled to listen to Ms. McGregor.

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Let’s put gender aside for a moment, and just talk Hamlet. What have you found most fascinating about the play?

What I found most fascinating was tracking how the revelation of injustice, in this case the murder of Hamlet's father, is the inciting incident that transforms a grieving young man who would rather shun public life into a man who sees the corrupt cracks in a whole system and is hell-bent on revenge. I find the soliloquies where Hamlet lets the audience into a very intimate debate on what to do next and reveals his rage, vulnerability, and confusion to be very moving and timely. This is especially true in many of the places the Mobile tour travels where folks in the audience are often wrestling with how to seek justice in an unjust world.

What knots did the playwright leave for you and your company to untangle?

Shakespeare left us to untangle the steps in [Hamlet's] transformation and the moments when he, intentionally or not, inflicts his own violence in the name of avenging a murder. There is also a style and technical challenge to untangle which is how to honor both the comedy and the tragedy in the play. We wanted to have the extremes of both be truthfully alive in the production. I was interested in how this production could be an examination, a warning and a call to action. How could we marry what is fundamental to the play with what seems urgent in our times so that the production can sit on a nerve.

Chukwudi Iwuji as Hamlet

Did you have preconceptions about Hamlet that got overturned in the rehearsal process?

Oskar Eustis recently came to a performance and told the actors that this production felt like a thriller. The rehearsal process overturned a preconception of just how fast and forward-footed we could make this piece while still honoring the moments of Hamlet's indecision and hesitation. The process revealed what a man of complex contradictions Hamlet is, eloquent and flawed, wise and damaged, enraged and in pain. An actor of Chukwudi Iwuji's excellence allowed us to mine the range and contemporary resonance of the journey. He was a gift. Each of the actors in the company made the work their own and made it sing in a fresh way.

What about the women you worked with?

[…] I loved working with Kristolyn Lloyd and Orlagh Cassidy on Ophelia and Gertrude. These roles can sometimes come off as thin or inauthentic. With Kristolyn we were able to create an Ophelia who has real spark, intelligence and soulfulness who also wrestles with the undertow of mental illness. She is caught as a woman wanting to express her individualism and personal power in a world where patriarchy still rules. By having her sing at the top of the show during our funeral prologue, we not only get to see a range of her emotions, but also the real connection between her and Hamlet before things go wrong. We get to see in her personal character and in their relationship a more modern and dimensional woman than I feel I often see with Ophelia.

And Orlagh Cassidy's Gertrude?

With Orlagh, we were able to mine the dangerous territory of a woman who allows the desire for comforts to turn a blind eye to things that her gut tells her are amiss. As a mother of a young son, it was important to me that there felt like a true love between Gertrude and Hamlet, but that we examine a woman who has chosen the privilege of blindness over truth seeking in a moment of crisis.

Kristolyn Lloyd & Jeffrey Omura

in Hamlet

Kristolyn told me about the challenges of Ophelia's mad scenes. How did you and she approach those mad scenes in rehearsal?

Working with our wonderful composer Imani Uzuri on Ophelia's vocal expression of grief and madness was key to unlocking something that felt very harrowing and real. The "mad scenes" often feel played at, but in rehearsal we created a wail that hits you in the gut. Creating her vocal compositions were important for her character revelation and for switching the tone of the piece. Her guttural singing and fall into madness remind us of the collateral damage stemming from the domino effect of the initial murder.

The smaller cast gives this Hamlet more gender parity than most. How do your role as the director affect the production’s depictions of women?

It was important to me that we pushed for more than just two women in the production. Casting the excellent Natalie Woolams-Torres allowed us to see other representations of women in the world. We get to witness Natalie inhabit the positions of strong secret service protector, charismatic childhood buddy, efficient messenger, and more. We could have easily cast that track as a male, but I'm so glad we did not. We actually auditioned women in three roles in addition to Ophelia and Gertrude. I am always looking for places where women and people of color not traditionally cast can make sense in my productions.

That's one more good reason to hire women to direct Shakespeare. I don't find many directors to interview for this series.

I'd note as you are focusing on women and Shakespeare that I have had so many examples of women directing Shakespeare that oddly men directing it used to seem strange to me. My first middle school theater teacher, as well as my high school program director, as well as the head of the department, dean and chair of my undergrad program, as well as the head of my grad program were all women. I had seen them all tango with the Bard. Early in my career I worked with Deborah Warner on Medea and got to watch her process and speak to her about directing Shakespeare. Also my mom is British and grew up making sets for these plays in school, so she is well-versed on the canon. I bring this up to say that for me there have not been the same barriers of not having seen women approach the work as some people have endured. There are women in my life who set a great example of standing toe to toe with the work and making it your own. I hope to be a women who can be this kind of example to those who come after me.

Chukwudi Iwuji as Hamlet

How does your identity as an African-American woman inform your vision?

In a time where violence targeting color and women are all-too-regular front-page topics, a play that looks at the murder of a king and the subsequence ripple effect leading to the collapse of a whole court sits on a nerve for me. It feels like it sits on a nerve for this country. The task of cutting the play down to Mobile Unit parameters seemed worthwhile for all the resonance I felt the play has with the crisis we are facing today.

Have the Mobile Unit’s audiences been enjoying the production?

I've only had the chance to see two Mobile Unit stops as I flew out to begin rehearsal for a play at the Guthrie just after the tour began. The audiences I witnessed were extremely engaged in both performances I was able to attend. I cannot wait to come back and see how the work has deepened.

How did you cut and revise the play to fit the Mobile Unit’s constraints?

The cut was done with the massive help from Jim Shapiro. I spoke with him and let him know what I wanted to focus on and what I wanted to let go of. I was also in conversations with Chuk early on about Hamlet’s journey, so we talked to Jim about suggestions. Then during rehearsal we made several additional cuts and one key restore of text. Jim and the whole cast were great collaborators on all these cuts and shifts and we all had the same goal of the most engaging, moving, and provocative show possible in under two hours.

Talking about Shakespeare more generally, what’s your perspective on his roles for women?

Shakespeare wrote some brilliant and inspiring women and also wrote some very problematic roles for and language about women. You can feel the male gaze at play in many of his pieces. Then again you have amazing representations of women like Paulina and Hermione in Winter's Tale. Paulina is fearless and braver than any of the men in the play, in speaking truth to power and standing up to injustice. Hermione is extraordinary in her grace and capacity for forgiveness. I feel these two women together represent an amazing aria of spectrum of womanhood. We can be strong as an ox, and as healing as any medicine in the world. I think Shakespeare's strength in depicting women is when he gives them language to speak their minds and they do it with intelligence, fire, and poetry.

What about his weaknesses?

His weakness is when he uses them as objects or objectives them. The thing I would have to really think about is any of the pieces that call for rape or major physical violence against women. I think there are ways in which those acts can be strangely glorified onstage. This troubles me. I'd have to do some hard thinking if I were to approach a Shakespeare play involving these pieces.

McGregor's production of The Winter's Tale

at California Shakespeare Theater

I read online that you directed The Winter's Tale. Have you done any other Shakespearean plays?

I'm directing Measure for Measure at the Old Globe this fall. I've directed Romeo and Juliet and acted in several other Shakespeare plays. I got into theater in 8th grade when I got asthma and happened to take a theater class where we read Midsummer's Night Dream. I loved it from the very beginning. It just made sense to me and I love the athleticism of the language and the wild range of characters in each piece.

Any dream-productions brewing in your head? What would be your first choice of his plays to direct?

I'd love another chance to look at Winter's Tale. I've also got a Tempest, Antony and Cleopatra, Macbeth, Twelfth Night and Midsummer's rolling around. Lear used to scare me as a play. I thought, what do I really understand about this journey? Then my elderly father came to live with me and I began to understand something about Lear. Shakespeare is so rich because it will grow and change with you as you grow and change. In that way, the text is always new and alive.

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The Public's Mobile Unit stages Hamlet from Sept 19 to Oct 9 at the Public Theater in the Village. Tickets are $20.

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headshot  Erik Pearson

photos #2 & 3  Joan Marcus

photo #4  mellopix.com

Women on Shakespeare: Kristolyn Lloyd on Ophelia

Since most Shakespearean casts are male-heavy and even male-only, coverage tends to focus on men who create the work. Let's balance that out! This is the second season of my interview series, Women on Shakespeare. I'm talking with the women who produce and perform Shakespeare and related work in New York City.

Twice every season, the Public Theater's Mobile Unit tours NYC neighborhoods with stagings of classic plays. The company is about to conclude its all-boro tour of Hamlet with a brief run at its home on Lafayette St. Kristolyn Lloyd plays the fair Ophelia, under the direction of Patricia MacGregor. I hope to email Ms. MacG later this week, but it's a pleasure to speak first with Ms. Lloyd, soon to make her Broadway debut in Dear Evan Hansen.

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Let’s start with Ophelia. What's the biggest challenge of the role? What knots did the playwright leave for you to untangle?

Ophelia was a challenge from the first scene to the last. Her inner life feels so much more mysterious compared to Hamlet because she reveals so much less than he does. Her turmoil appears to occur after Hamlet tells her to go to a nunnery, breaking her heart. I had to approach that loss for her as a complete shock. Him rejecting her was not how she had hoped the scene would end. We don't know much of her past and therefore the audience has got to connect with her from the moment she's on stage. I think Patricia did a lovely job creating a specific world for the audience. From the moment the show starts, we get a sense of who this woman is to this world and who she is to Hamlet.

How do you envision her inner life over the arc of the play?

I saw her journey through the show initially through a play list of songs. Music has always been an important investigating tool for me when approaching a character. She seemed like a young woman with a very deep soul. So I started with artists like Fatai, India Arie, and Ledisi. She's deeply in love at the top of the show and these artists sing about that kind of love. As the plot thickens, I imagine that all she's aware of is her own pain, and would be confused by everyone's recent behavior. In the world we've created no one is filling this young woman in on any secret plots or plans. I was also inspired by hip and pop artist like Drake, Beyoncé, Ariana Grande, Florence & The Machine, and Sia. Her fall has to be enormous and heartbreaking. Music is about emotional extremes and there's always a song that can capture them.

How do you approach her mad scenes, and play them honestly? What links them to the sane woman earlier in the play?

Lloyd (r)
with Jeffrey Omura as Polonius

I found that her mad scenes are born out of isolation. The depth of sorrow over the loss of intimacy with the ones you love and counted on is universal. How is she motherless? When did that happen? I imagine she's got quite a depth and strength to her after losing a mother. Her brother leaves, her best friend and love of her life ignores her, verbally abuses her, and rejects her. She's the most alone she's ever felt and then her father is murdered. She doesn't even get to say goodbye. She's now lost all her life-lines. What would a person, who is trying to make sense of why this happened to her, be like by the time she takes her own life? I, sometimes reluctantly, have to put on that story every show and try to do right by her. It's her story.

This Hamlet has more gender parity than most, especially behind the scenes. How does that play into the production’s depictions of women?

Having such a heavy female presence brings in so much humanity. It's a three- to four-hour play, that's been cut down (quite well thanks to Patricia and Jim Shapiro) to an hour 40, and with a short process. We were very fortunate to have women who can multi-task, who care about the details, and manage the time so well. Patricia McGregor assembled a great group of artists! Our composer, Imani Uzuri, found music for the show that brings a beautiful thread of texture to the tone and atmosphere. We had a female movement coordinator, fight choreographer, vocal assistant, and stage management team. So when Patricia and I first talked about Ophelia we both agreed there was no room for a frail wilting flower. We have to root for her.

How have the local audiences been enjoying the Mobile Unit’s production?

I wanted audiences on the Mobile tour to simply connect with the story. I was so surprised and elated when we went to a women's shelter and they were so vocal. They knew lines, they showed their support for certain characters and disdain for others. They weren't shy and I have to admit it was a bit of a rush! Knowing that they are with you on your journey was comforting. They are generally for Ophelia, not against her, and they always seem so devastated when she loses it.

Talking about Shakespeare more generally, what’s your perspective on his roles for women?

Lloyd (r) with Christian DeMarais as Laertes

I feel a bit limited when it comes to speaking on whether or not William Shakespeare writes well for women. I don't presume to know anything that hasn't already been said. I think he writes well for the central characters. Always. Which in some case are women. When I think of Measure for Measure or Romeo and Juliet, I feel as though he has the highest regard for women who fight for their integrity. But you can't deny the absence of character context with other women in his plays like Desdemona or even Ophelia. I would dare to say there was just as much a double standard in Elizabethan days as is there is in today's writing. Women have always fought to be seen with more dimensions than society has given them permission be; in theatre, film, and television.

Directors tend to cast white men in Shakespeare, partly out of habit. What perspectives and insights do you bring to his plays, as an African-American and a woman?

As actors we are responsible for pushing ourselves to take more risk in our craft and also in life. So much of what makes a performance memorable is what the person playing role brings to it. Whether it's a more humorous outlook on it all, or one of struggle. Both bring color to the tapestry of life they bring out in a character. I found that my experience as a black woman was a Godsend when playing Ophelia. How does a black woman who is young and doing the best she can with what she's been given respond to the turmoil we see her go through? The performer's perspective of these present circumstances is what the character is filtered through and that's what the audience is looking forward to being immersed in.

What other Shakespearean roles have you done?

So far I have played Juliet, Ophelia, and Hamlet. Yes, Hamlet.

I love cross-gender casting! Any other parts of his that you’d love to play?

I would love to do Juliet again or perhaps a comedy! I wouldn't be upset if I was cast as Helena in Midsummer.

I'll look forward to your Ophelia. Break a leg, and thanks for speaking with me!

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The Public's Mobile Unit stages Hamlet from Sept 19 to Oct 9 at the Public Theater in the Village. Tickets are $20.

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headshot  Cathryn Farnsworth
photos #2 & 3  Joan Marcus

Women on Shakespeare: Ismenia Mendes on Cressida

Since most Shakespearean casts are male-heavy (and some are male-only), coverage tends to focus on men who create the work. Let's balance that out! This is #13 in my interview series, Women on Shakespeare. I'm talking with the women who produce and perform Shak and related work in New York.

This summer, Ismenia Mendes stars in Troilus and Cressida at the Public Theater's free Shakespeare in the Park. Our conversation about Much Ado's Hero (who she played at the same venue in Summer '14) inspired me to start this series, so I'm particularly thrilled to email with her about her return visit to the Delacorte, and how her perspective on Shakespeare's women has changed in two years.

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It's a pleasure to talk with you again, Ismenia! Let’s start with your role as Cressida. She’s not as well-known as most of Shakespeare’s heroines. What have you discovered about her that you find fascinating? What are her finest qualities, and her worst ones? What knots did the playwright leave for you to untangle?

I actually had not read this play until auditioning for it. Maybe it was that I read it at 2 a.m. but my first thought after reading it was, “Holy shit, this woman belongs to the 21st century.” She is so unbelievably contemporary. She’s crude, smart, sexy, cynical (or tries to be) — and her story is one of Shakespeare’s most relevant to today’s culture of misogyny. This is also a play where Shakespeare poses a lot of problems/questions and doesn’t really give you many answers. You’re pretty much on your own — luckily this play in particular just begs interpretation. I’m actually grateful that Cressida is played so seldom. It’s really given me the opportunity to define her for myself.

Cressida shows a very different spirit than most of Shak’s lovers, maybe one more open to interpretation. How would you describe her relationships with her uncle, Troilus, and Diomedes? How do you envision her inner life over the arc of the play?

Here’s the thing. Cressida’s dad defected to the Greek side (She’s a Trojan) years ago and she has basically been raised by her very dirty, very outspoken, and very bawdy uncle. As a result, you have a woman who is equally bawdy, equally outspoken and easily the smartest person in every scene. She has no real social standing, which gives her a lot more freedom than most of Shakespeare’s other heroines — and she uses that freedom. She is acutely self-aware, but also struggling to define herself in this very masculine world. I feel like her uncle has raised her with all of these warnings about men, and so she tries to project this cynical, hardened façade, but is actually this very innocent, intelligent young woman struggling to find her place in the world, and in love.

Mendes as Cressida with John Glover (c)
and Andrew Burnap (l)

In Shakespeare’s era, “as false as Cressida” was a sexist cliché about women’s infidelity. How does her role in the story address that cliché? Is there room for its ironic subversion in modern times?

I actually believe that what Shakespeare has written is very much in defense of Cressida. And I honestly have some real difficulties understanding how the few productions that have been done of Troilus and Cressida have been so damning of her. The timing of this production is so perfect, what with the Brock Turner case and the conversation this country is having about our rape culture. Cressida is forced into an impossible decision — she does what she does to survive. She is in no way, the ‘inconstant woman.’

Can you tell us about the other women in T&C’s cast? You, Nneka Okafor, and Tala Ashe are a racially and culturally diverse trio, and (unlike Taming earlier this summer) the three of you are a minority gender-wise too. Do you think those identities play into the production’s depictions of women?

Absolutely. The women in this play all have one thing in common: they are consistently devalued and silenced. I think Dan purposefully cast only men in the ensemble. The women are so vastly outnumbered that there is this sense that they may, at any time, be swallowed whole. And I think, metaphorically, they are.

You’re working closely with John Glover again! How would you describe your chemistry together? What have you picked up from him here and in Much Ado? And how do Cressida and Pandarus mirror and distort Hero and her father?

John! Oh I could go on and on about my love for John Glover. He is a master of play. Sharing a stage with him is not only wickedly fun, but also immensely educational. He has an ease with the language that just floors me. Playing his daughter Hero, though, was a very different task from playing his niece Cressida. Mostly because Hero and Cressida are about as different as you can get. In Much Ado you have a dutiful, sweet, almost repressive father-daughter relationship. In our production of Troilus and Cressida, Pandarus has all but raised Cressida, but not at all as a Hero. They behave as contemporaries (whether or not that may be the reality) — they mock and tease each other mercilessly, constantly trying to one-up each other.

Mendes as Hero with Lily Rabe's Beatrice
in 2014's Much Ado

In our conversation about Much Ado, you mentioned that the Delacorte’s environment & thrust stage forced you to be “smarter & more aware” of your acting choices. What strategies will you revisit this time around? Anything you’ll do differently?

My vocal work in this show is very different. Hero was in many ways a kind of woman-child. Cressida is a woman in every regard. She is a survivor and a force of nature. Because of this my pre show vocal warm-ups have changed. There is also the difference of period vs. contemporary costumes. I have a lot more freedom in this production. It is so nice not having to speak Shakespeare in a corset.

Also last time around, you mentioned wanting to play Juliet and Perdita. Have you had those chances yet? or any other Shakespearean or classical roles you’ve played in the last two years? Do you have any Shakespearean dream-roles traditionally played by men?

I’ve got the Cressida bug. Now, instead of Juliet and Perdita, I’m hankering to play Rosalind and Lady M. I'm entering a period in my life where the appeal of playing teenagers has pretty much disappeared.

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The Public Theater's free Shakespeare in the Park stages Troilus and Cressida from July 19 to August 14 at the Delacorte in Central Park. Tickets are free.

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headshot  Hannah Sherman
photos #2 & 3  Joan Marcus

Women on Shakespeare: Rachel Pickup as Portia

Since most Shakespearean casts are male-heavy (and some are male-only), coverage tends to focus on men who create the work. Let's balance that out! This is #12 in my interview series, Women on Shakespeare. I'm talking with the women who produce and perform Shak and related work in New York.

The Lincoln Center Festival hosts Shakespeare's Globe on another visit to Manhattan. The show's Merchant of Venice, and Rachel Pickup plays Portia to Jonathan Pryce's Shylock. She's an English actress who spent a season with the RSC, and several more years around the UK, before she moved to America. Her shrewd Goneril, plus chemistry with her Regan (Bianca Amato), made her stand out in '14's Lear at Theatre for a New Audience. I emailed with Rachel about the complexities and challenges of Portia.

Thanks for talking with me, Rachel. In rehearsing and playing Portia in London and New York, what have you discovered about her?

I confess I had never really thought much about The Merchant of Venice before I came to do it last year, so my preconception about Portia was probably the same as many people’s. I knew she said, “The quality of mercy is not strained, it droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven,” so I had assumed she herself was full of mercy. If I am honest I think I thought she was pure goodness. Foolish of me, as Shakespeare is never so simplistic, but I thought she was the romantic lovely princess. She is not. She has many of those ‘young lover’ qualities: intelligence, passion, sometimes compassion, selfishness, (often selfishness), but also entitlement, confidence sometimes even bordering on arrogance. That has surprised me.

But the most fascinating thing has been how someone [who] is able to say that speech about mercy can then behave in quite a cruel way. However you justify the cruelty, she is nevertheless distinctly lacking in mercy in the way she treats Shylock and Jessica and two of her suitors. She is certainly not wholly lovely in how she behaves, and that has been a fascinating journey of discovery. I have a whole other play going on in my head when myself and Nerissa return from the court scene to Belmont. But the play ends where it ends so that sequel is for another time.

What are Portia's finest qualities, and her worst ones?

She is super-smart and passionate, and magnificently brave and strong, and ahead of her time, and she has the capacity to learn. But she is capable of cruelty, she is selfish, and, most devastatingly, she is a racist. She is a complex woman. She is a flawed human being. She is a product of her time, her environment, so alas, she is, frankly, racist. It has been hard to embrace that, but it is important to, especially because of these times that we are living in. It is sadly far too current!

What knots did the playwright leave for you to untangle?

Many! So many little plot details which we as a company had to address when we were first going thru the play. Simple things like, how long have I been going through the casket trial? Do I know which casket contains my picture? When did I meet Bassanio and, if we both fell in love at first sight, why did we not get together when my father was alive? Then of course myself and Nerissa dressing up as men and going to court. How do we do that in the time allotted? And get back to Belmont so fast? How is it that my cousin happens to be the Doctor of Law expected in court, and that I can be instructed in the ways of the law in the short time before travelling to Venice? All of these things and so many more. I could go on and on — and I think you almost always can in Shakespeare. We can find justification for all of the these things though, and it is vital that we as a company come to an agreement on why we do what we do and when.

Do you think an audience gets all that thought you've put in?

Oftentimes an audience won’t even consider these problems. The brilliance of Shakespeare is the way he forces you to jump in and just — believe! It is like how we are when we are children. There is a fairy tale element to this play — to many of his [plays] — and so long as we know why we are doing what we are doing, I think an audience will. Conviction is all!

Merchant addresses religion in volatile ways, and the show’s effect depends heavily on Portia’s argument in court. What are your thoughts on her argument about mercy?

I answered that to some degree in my first question but to further it. She is of course utterly brilliant in what she says. What you realise, when you really listen to the whole trial scene many times, is that the Doge and everyone else keeps saying to Shylock, “have mercy”, “everyone expects mercy”. But it is an assumption we all make, that a person would be merciful — nobody actually stops to say why? Portia is astounded by the fact that Shylock has to actually ask the question, “On what compulsion must I [be merciful], tell me that?” Of course one should not have to ask, but he does, so she simply answers. It starts as a simple answer, but Shylock does not respond nor does he seem convinced, so she is forced to qualify her initial simple answer and expand on it. And I think the shock of having to explain this basic human concept of mercy allows her to get somewhat carried away — not entirely, she has her feet on the ground — but I think during that speech Portia has a deep, new learning herself. [sic]

What does she learn?

She grows up somewhat in the mercy speech. She herself has not always been merciful, she has not always been kind, she has never been outside of her cloistered and “golden” palace of Belmont and has not known the world. Now here she is in the ugly real world of Venice and it is a coming-of-age.

What about her ‘winning’ argument about flesh but no blood?

The most brilliant move a lawyer could come up with - and she does so in the moment — in our production anyway! It is genius and spot on! I love her for it! I love it!

By contrast, the casket scenes make Portia silent, but she still controls the situation. How do you animate her silence and formal responses to her suitors?

I am interested that you think she controls the situation. In our production she does not. We felt that it was more dramatic for us not to know which casket contained which “prize” so we are at the ‘mercy’ of fate in those scenes and she does not control it. She prays to the Gods! And she wishes she could “teach Bassanio how to choose right” but alas she is one who also obeys the law and her father’s will so she will not ever cheat or lie or “be foresworn”!

I just need to listen to the others on stage. Morocco and Aragon, our actors, are so brilliant and so 'in' it that I don’t need to think about how I animate anything. I listen to what they are saying and I react accordingly, as do Nerissa and Balthazar. You should never really have to think about how you are animating a scene if you are listening — words or no words.

How does she make her choice (for Bassanio)?

We discussed Bassanio’s and my backstory and decided we had met a few months ago at one of Belmont’s many balls—we had barely spoken but we fell in love. Again, there are fairy tale elements but you can fall in love at first sight, people do all the time so… it was not a choice is what I am saying, we were ‘meant to be’! I like to believe in that!

Talking about Shakespeare more generally, what’s your perspective on his roles for women?

There are not enough of them, that is for sure. He writes many wonderful women though, and I love that for the most part they are strong. They are often the ones who sort out the problems, or take the risks. Juliet is way more interesting than Romeo, Portia is braver than Bassanio, Rosalind intensely more fabulous than Orlando, etc. etc. But, obvious to say, they are often second fiddle to the men. Where in Shakespeare are the Hamlets, the Lears, the many Richards or Henry’s or Iagos for the women? They are just so few and far between, however wonderful those that are there are! Having said that, the ones that are brilliant are truly majestically so, and I feel incredibly lucky to have played so many of them.

Are there any you don't like?

The only female semi-leading role that I find a little limp is Hero in Much Ado. She is a bit insipid, I am glad I was never offered that part.

Pickup as Goneril opposite Michael Pennington's Lear
at Theatre for a New Audience, 2014

Is there anything in Shakespeare's plays that’s beyond salvaging?

Interesting, never thought of it in that way? “salvaging”?!!? I don’t think so, no — not that I know every single play intimately, by any means. But he is so brilliant that even in some of the more flawed plays there are always moments/speeches that take your breath away. I think any good director who is excited by any given play will then do something with it to make it ‘salvageable’ as you say — or they will cut any of the dross — not a bad thing to do sometimes!

I mean anything that can never work onstage, no matter how ironically it's played.

I am not a fan of all the “Poor Tom” stuff in King Lear — it goes on for far too long. Many don’t agree with me of course, but I think it is impossible to sustain that for quite as long as Shakespeare writes it. I am afraid I tend to tune out! If I direct Lear, I will cut a lot of that!

Do you have any particular Shakespearean roles you’d still love to play? Any dream-roles traditionally played by men?

So many! All the obvious ones and sure — I always wanted to play Richard the 2nd and Hamlet and King Lear and Edmund and all those meaty parts. But as I get older I do tend to think let the men play the men and the women the women… perhaps that is very boring of me. If I were offered King Lear I would say yes in a heartbeat!

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Shakespeare's Globe and Lincoln Center Festival's The Merchant of Venice runs from July 20 to 24 in Jazz at Lincoln Center. Tickets are $45-150.

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headshot  Scott Marshall
photos #2 & 3  Manuel Harlan
photo #4  Carol Rosegg